tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post6003187239205580128..comments2024-02-14T08:44:41.513+00:00Comments on Progressive Buddhism: Is there a place for verbal abuse in Buddhism?Myeong Jin Eunsahn http://www.blogger.com/profile/10324409234993116264noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-1488604661280278552013-09-24T17:12:06.619+01:002013-09-24T17:12:06.619+01:00Why are America Zen adherents so obsessed with sor...Why are America Zen adherents so obsessed with sorting out who's right and who's wrong, especially in public forums?<br /><br />I came to Zen to get away from all this noise.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-36663051011260945632011-02-21T18:31:49.756+00:002011-02-21T18:31:49.756+00:00Sure is a lot of desire in here. Desire to be righ...Sure is a lot of desire in here. Desire to be right. Desire to be angry.<br /><br /> Tanzan and Ekido were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling.<br /> Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.<br /> "Come on girl," said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.<br /> Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he told Tanzan, "especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"<br /> "I left the girl there," said Tanzan. "Are you still carrying her?"<br /><br />-101 Zen Stories-Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-82422365338907568802010-01-30T17:08:22.865+00:002010-01-30T17:08:22.865+00:00This is a grey area at best. Find faults is bad. ...This is a grey area at best. Find faults is bad. Keeping people away from dangerous charlatans I would say is good and does not violate that precept. Now is Genpo Roshi a dangerous charlatan? Probably not. I would say he's just a charlatan. I would say Scientology, Andrew Cohen, etc would fall into the dangerous charlatan category. So does keeping people away from a charlatan violate the precept? I would say no. Not saying anything would be following the precept literally but not in spirit. But again your view of Genpo will determine how you judge this. If you love, like, or accept Genpo's teaching you will think this is breaking the precept. If you think Genpo is a charlatan you will not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-20126947347180150622008-10-01T06:49:00.000+01:002008-10-01T06:49:00.000+01:00So we agree that Brad plays a useful role at times...So we agree that Brad plays a useful role at times.<BR/><BR/>I suppose I'm simply not bothered whether some people's ideas about Buddhism are a bit woolly or 'fuddy-duddy'. My own practice isn't. I just get on with it.<BR/><BR/>But I don't see a great benefit in replacing one sort of self-righteous windbag with another.Shoninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03635409886545725801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-30691653018766244312008-10-01T01:44:00.000+01:002008-10-01T01:44:00.000+01:00Tom said: We need to have a few Brads around, to m...<B>Tom</B> said: <I>We need to have a few Brads around, to make stark, pointed statements and to keep us from being fuddy-duddy self-righteous windbags.</I><BR/><BR/>And amen to that, too.Juleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02292122631541880115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-47253034348883859462008-09-30T21:11:00.000+01:002008-09-30T21:11:00.000+01:00A light sprinkling of Brads is as much as the eart...<I>A light sprinkling of Brads is as much as the earth can handle.</I><BR/><BR/>Amen to that! LOLShoninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03635409886545725801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-56812165262209532752008-09-30T19:15:00.000+01:002008-09-30T19:15:00.000+01:00We need to have a few Brads around, to make stark,...We need to have a few Brads around, to make stark, pointed statements and to keep us from being fuddy-duddy self-righteous windbags.<BR/><BR/>Frankly, it is particularly necessary for there to be someone of standing to "speak truth to power" in the case of Gempo Roshi Instant Enlightenment seminars.<BR/><BR/>Does this mean it would be a good thing if everyone was like Brad? God, no. A light sprinkling of Brads is as much as the earth can handle.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13718601770472939313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-2230220589645160122008-09-29T20:25:00.000+01:002008-09-29T20:25:00.000+01:00Yes.There is a danger though with getting into the...Yes.<BR/><BR/>There is a danger though with getting into the whole criticism and judgement game - because you are fixating on concepts, becoming attached to views and projecting your judgements outwards. This is delusional and can be a big obstacle to true practice. Generally it's best I think just to focus on your own practice. I think this is why Brad gets away with so much, but I decided to open my mouth and say something about Brad. But I need to let go of that now.<BR/><BR/>A true master perhaps can gently and cooly guide others without becoming opinionated.Shoninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03635409886545725801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-66842984699045611472008-09-29T18:50:00.000+01:002008-09-29T18:50:00.000+01:00Nice post, Justin.These days I'm a little anti-ins...Nice post, Justin.<BR/>These days I'm a little anti-institution and relish Brad's humour and stance on some schools of Buddhism and teachers he doesn't care for. The 'asswipe' thing wasn't very kind though, considering if I remember rightly, it just referred to a guy who left his Seshin early.<BR/>Even though I've come to think that his comments so far are mostly fine, I think your criticisms are also fine.<BR/>"It's healthy to counterbalance his approach" - exactly!<BR/>And in a way that's what he's doing with his approach too - counterbalancing all the obsession with enlightenment, spiritual gurus, smugness and phoney Buddhism.PAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10903236008640499571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-34344759200177820762008-09-29T06:36:00.000+01:002008-09-29T06:36:00.000+01:00Bradley,I actually agree with you too. Brad is a r...Bradley,<BR/><BR/>I actually agree with you too. Brad is a really good writer - he makes something difficult, arcane-seeming (and probably unfashionable) seem accessible, interesting and entertaining. For me too, he helped me to get into Zen. I've been following his writing since well before he published his first book. I'm glad Brad is there being Brad. If I met him I'd buy him a drink.<BR/><BR/>But that doesn't mean he's above criticism. I think it's healthy to counterbalance his approach.<BR/><BR/>Kudos for being open-minded.Shoninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03635409886545725801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-74462364815642783982008-09-29T00:04:00.000+01:002008-09-29T00:04:00.000+01:00You've given me a new perspective. I thank you for...You've given me a new perspective. I thank you for your time and wordsBradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03165758946455917918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-70658285382418735782008-09-29T00:00:00.000+01:002008-09-29T00:00:00.000+01:00Me?I like his books and I actually like a no-nonse...Me?<BR/><BR/>I like his books and I actually like a no-nonsense attitudes towards things.<BR/><BR/>That being said, for Brad, Zen = Zazen and nothing else. Additionally, anything that isn't Zen isn't really Buddhism, which he has stated many times.<BR/><BR/> I find that to be a rather simplistic take on Buddhism. This is all the more true since I'm a Buddhist but not a Zen Buddhist so I'm not really a Buddhist according to Brad. Of course, according to Brad, the Dalai Lama isn't a real Buddhist either since he isn't Zen.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561666880371974930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-47367109299403202252008-09-28T23:52:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:52:00.000+01:00I appreciate your explanation.So then, what are yo...I appreciate your explanation.<BR/><BR/>So then, what are your feelings on Brad Warner in other respects? Do you think he's positively impacting the field of western Buddhism? The reason I ask, is that Brad Warner started as a jumping-off point for me spiritually. Having someone like that was really nice to relate to, so I'm quick to stand up for what he's said. But I can clearly see his interpretations of the vows he's taken are skewed. Thoughts?Bradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03165758946455917918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-71972317679909608052008-09-28T23:46:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:46:00.000+01:00Brad is a member of the Dogen Sangha. His teacher ...Brad is a member of the <A HREF="http://www.dogensangha.org/" REL="nofollow">Dogen Sangha</A>. His teacher is a super reform Zen roshi, <A HREF="http://www.dogensangha.org/gwn.htm" REL="nofollow">Gudo Wafu Nishijima</A>. Nishijima has written <A HREF="http://www.dogensangha.org/articles.htm" REL="nofollow">many articles</A> on Zen. One of these is on the <A HREF="http://www.dogensangha.org/articles.htm#Precepts" REL="nofollow">precepts</A>. These precepts are taken on, as his article discusses, when one goes through Jukai. I know of some schools that only do the five pancasila precepts when they go through Jukai, along with taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. <BR/><BR/>One goes through Jukai to take refuge and become a committed Buddhist within a number of the Japanese traditions (such as Soto and Rinzai Zen). This is done by those on the path to eventual ordination within Zen, so Brad had to do this.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, when one goes through tokkudo and is formally ordained, the 16 Great Bodhisattva Precepts are taken as part of the ordination platform (if they haven't all been taken already). These are, generally (with some quibbling on translation):<BR/><BR/>The Sixteen Bodhisattva Precepts:<BR/><BR/>The Three Treasures<BR/>1. I take refuge in Buddha.<BR/>2. I take refuge in Dharma.<BR/>3. I take refuge in Sangha.<BR/><BR/>The Three Pure Precepts<BR/>1. I vow to avoid evil.<BR/>2. I vow to practice good.<BR/>3. I vow to save all beings.<BR/><BR/>The Ten Grave Precepts<BR/>1. Recognizing I am not separate from all that is, I vow to take up the way of not killing,<BR/>2. Being satisfied with what I have, I vow to take up the way of not stealing.<BR/>3. Treating all beings with respect and dignity, I vow to take up the way of not misusing sex.<BR/>4. Listening and speaking from the heart, I vow to take up the way of not speaking falsely.<BR/>5. Cultivating a mind that sees clearly, I vow to take up the way of not giving or taking drugs.<BR/>6. Unconditionally accepting what each moment has to offer, I vow to take up the way of not discussing the faults of others.<BR/>7. Speaking what I perceive to be the truth without guilt or blame, I vow to take up the way of not praising myself while abusing others.<BR/>8. Being grateful for the gifts of this life, I vow to take up the way of not sparing the Dharma assets.<BR/>9. Transforming suffering into wisdom, I vow to take up the way of not indulging in anger.<BR/>10. Honoring my life as an instrument of the Great Way, I vow to take the way of not defaming the Three Treasures. <BR/><BR/>Brad's own teacher and master, Nishijima Roshi, writes about the precepts in the article above. When discussing the sixth precept, he states:<BR/><BR/>"No.6: Don’t discuss failures of Buddhist priests and laymen. As Buddhists we try our best to live and practice the Buddhist life. In doing so we often make mistakes. This is natural. Our mistakes come directly from our efforts. This may sound strange, but it is the fact in our life. So when we see the mistakes of others we should not be <BR/>critical, for their mistakes are only the product of their efforts in this life. "<BR/><BR/>This is Brad's own teacher and the man that ordained him.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561666880371974930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-66270679630711797482008-09-28T23:30:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:30:00.000+01:00So can you give me an example of all of the vows y...So can you give me an example of all of the vows you must align with to formally teach Zen Buddhism? I'm aware of the common eight-fold path, but what is different for a Zen teacher?<BR/><BR/>And I appreciate your comments on that matter, thank you.Bradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03165758946455917918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-77707417190614962022008-09-28T23:21:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:21:00.000+01:00To use simpler terms, if you can't follow your vow...To use simpler terms, if you can't follow your vows, you should give them back, as is traditionally done, not just continue to break them.<BR/><BR/>If and when I take on those precepts, I will do my best to observe them and the struggles that go with doing so. <BR/><BR/>Brad seems more interested in behaving as he wishes and then justifying his behavior by stating that others can't criticize his failure to follow the precepts because he says that they can't.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561666880371974930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-58739660294797902402008-09-28T23:19:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:19:00.000+01:00Bradley,You (and others) miss the point that Brad ...Bradley,<BR/><BR/>You (and others) miss the point that Brad is an ORDAINED teacher of Zen who has taken certain precepts during his ordination. He chooses to creatively (not) follow them.<BR/><BR/>I am NOT an ordained zen teacher. I can say the word "crap". In any case, it doesn't matter because I didn't say "Brad is crap," which would be an actual analogy. What I said is the idea that the precepts don't apply to teachers you disagree with is a load of crap. That's applicable to the IDEA, not to the PERSON.<BR/><BR/>Got it?Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561666880371974930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-53639699665049181402008-09-28T23:16:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:16:00.000+01:00"a load of crap"?It just sounds a lot to me like o..."a load of crap"?<BR/><BR/>It just sounds a lot to me like our definitions of vulgar are different. <BR/><BR/>My point was that vulgarity or not, you're still attacking another teacher's message, and isn't that exactly what you accuse him of doing as well?Bradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03165758946455917918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-46144539469716818712008-09-28T23:10:00.000+01:002008-09-28T23:10:00.000+01:00"No more than you're doing now."Except none of us ..."No more than you're doing now."<BR/><BR/>Except none of us are attacking people with vulgarity, especially teachers of the Dharma. <BR/><BR/>Brad could "keep it real" and still be respectful towards others in speech and action. You don't have to call someone an "asswipe" to make it clear that you disagree with them, especially when they are a teacher with decades of experience. Brad excuses what he does by stating that since he disagrees with the stance of another Dharma teacher, they aren't really Dharma teachers so the precepts don't apply. That's a load of crap.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561666880371974930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-59167084355549686922008-09-28T22:48:00.000+01:002008-09-28T22:48:00.000+01:00Brad Warner is the reason I found Buddhism, becaus...Brad Warner is the reason I found Buddhism, because he appeals to a market that Richard Gere doesn't. I for one, think that he's helping Buddhism in a positive way. Besides: read his books, he's simply criticizing what he thinks is wrong, no more than you're doing right now. Take it with a grain of saltBradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03165758946455917918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-80684833209918333242008-09-28T14:37:00.000+01:002008-09-28T14:37:00.000+01:00excellent topic. I think in this world we live in,...excellent topic. I think in this world we live in, standing our ground and speaking out when we see blatant harm done to others is being mindful.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14925360776637168540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-91326035731921676612008-09-28T11:57:00.000+01:002008-09-28T11:57:00.000+01:00There is a danger of getting entangled in being ju...There is a danger of getting entangled in being judgemental myself by talking about this. But there are occasional times when it's necessary to speak out.<BR/><BR/>If there was teacher who was sexually abusing others I'd criticise them. I would'd be silenced by authority or rationalisations as to why it was OK. This is not so bad, but it is a form of verbal abuse.Shoninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03635409886545725801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043003269935490917.post-13907342050274809472008-09-28T10:53:00.000+01:002008-09-28T10:53:00.000+01:00I'm glad someone is saying it but I doubt Brad is ...I'm glad someone is saying it but I doubt Brad is listening.Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561666880371974930noreply@blogger.com